DICK CAVETT SHOW

NBC TV, US 45min

Taped in New York, 4 December 1974

Available:
Young Americans appears on Best Of Bowie DVD (2003) The entire interview and performances on the DVD of the Young Americans CD DVD 2007 reissue

After an introduction from Cavett, Bowie sang 1984 and Young Americans, many critics picking up the reference to Nixon.

The conversation that ensued between Bowie and Dick Cavett was covered with some wonder by the press, Bowie being more evasive than ever.

Cavett, sans tie for an interview with a difference, didn't help proceedings by continuing the interview on a simplistic level and not pursuing areas that may have drawn Bowie out. Just before he went on camera, Bowie reached for a cane that he had used once or twice in concert.

His obsessive fiddling with the cane and loud sniffing sounds (Bowie was a cocaine addict of magnitude at the time) during the interview, showed that Bowie was far from comfortable in the situation.

For the main part the conversation mostly flowed around Cavett and the commercial breaks but Bowie finished up the show with a cover version of Footstompin', the blueprint for Fame.

THE INTERVIEW

Dick Cavett: We have a very vocal group here tonight, not only you, but the people out there. It's strange to see you off your feet like this... welcome, nice to see you.

David Bowie: Thank you.

Cavett: So...you've got a lot of explaining to do.

Bowie: Yes.

Cavett: I feel like interviewing...I wish I could interview you like that character that Peter Cook does, you know "What's all this prancing about stagey and trappings and all that"...but you don't have the trappings that you've had in the past. You're a little bit more conventional.

Bowie: Yeah, at this moment.

Cavett: What happened?

Bowie: We did the Diamond Dogs tour and took it from New York to Los Angeles and I felt like that was enough, really. Rather than come back with the same thing, I wanted to give myself an opportunity just to work with a band.

Cavett: So a lot of the glitter is gone that we associate with you and you've got an entirely new persona now. Is the offstage Bowie likely to surprise people? I've had the wierdest reactions from people who know that you're gonna be on. Some said that they'd be scared to sit and talk to you, some people said that you would bite my neck, a very peculiar kind of thing.

Bowie: It's what you want really...what do you think I'm like?

Cavett: Well, I've only met you over the phone and a little bit backstage and to me you seem like a...I hope this doesn't insult you...a vainy actor.

Bowie: (laughs) That's right, that's very good.

Cavett: To me...what are you drawing? (Cavett comments on Bowie's nervous cane movements) ...some people said "I don't know if I'd want to meet him, he would make me very nervous. I have a feeling he's into black magic and that sort of thing" and other people see you as just a very skillful performer, who changes from time to time from one thing to another.

Bowie: Yeah...well, both of that is...(laughs)...I'm a person of diverse interests, but not really very academic. I glit from one thing to another, a lot.

Cavett: Glit?

Bowie: It's like flit, but it's the Seventies version.

Cavett: One letter later in the alphabet...this incredible picture (Cavett shows the album cover of "Diamond Dogs") it's very striking the first time you see it. The first time this album appeared in a record store window, I could see it actually stopping traffic on the sidewalk. This is a picture that you sent to the draftboard obviously. How did that come about, that whole idea and that very painting?

Bowie: Um...let me see...well, it's an artist from Belgium called Guy Peellaert, who did a book called "Rock Dreams"...that I nicked, well, I didn't nick the book, but I saw the book at Mick Jagger's house and I nicked the idea of doing a cover.

Cavett: What does nick mean?

Bowie: Oh...stole.

Cavett: Stole the idea...does this make you nervous, to sit without your band and sit and chat a little bit?

Bowie: Um...Oh, let's carry on talking. Don't ask me that. Otherwise I'll wonder, you see. I'd rather not know if I'm nervous until...

Cavett: ...okay, I won't worry about that. Where's the kick for you David in performance when you're onstage?

Bowie: That's it, complete, really.

Cavett: Being there?

Bowie: Yeah.

Cavett: The entrance and...I can imagine that it would be a very exciting profession. I mean, to stand there with that...there are people in the world who's never stood on stage...I mean to stand on a gigantic stage like that, with a band behind you...the rehearsal today I stood in for you...you know what I mean. The feeling of standing there with that sound comming behind you, is very exhilarating.

Bowie: An incredible feeling and I got a lot of fulfillment from working in productions like Diamond Dogs or the Ziggy Stardust. But it was one of putting together lots of bits and pieces, and loose ends, and directing the whole thing and remembering a thousand things at once. So that was one kind of fulfillment. But now that I'm working with just a band and singing, which is something I haven't done for years, just stand and sing my songs. I'm finding a new kind of fulfillment. I'll go back into doing productions in...

Cavett: You will?

Bowie: Oh, yeah...I just wanted to go out and sing my songs as a singer and songwriter for a bit.

(Commercial break)

Cavett: David, what kind of student were you in school?

Bowie: As I've said, not very academic, I suppose I was considered arty.

Cavett: Arty?

Bowie: Yeah.

Cavett: Did you go through college or to college?

Bowie: Yeah, I went to a technical college near London and had an art course for people from twelve upwards who couldn't do anything else much like maths or physics or something, so I took art.

Cavett: You know that Jagger studied economics?

Bowie: Yes.

Cavett: And I mentioned that once when he was on and some of his fans were dissapointed to hear that. He was at the London School Of Economics and it ties into an interview he did with Willian Burroughs, which I thought was interesting if it's in fact, true...

Bowie: Oh, don't believe it! (laughs)

Cavett: Everything ties in with something else, you said. Which is..."Don't ask me any questions because I'll say something different everytime". But taking a chance here, taking a stab in the light...you said that there were lives of the rockstars who are really not as strange as the lives of their fans. It's an interesting point that the fans sort of envy the stars, but in effect the stars would conventionalise and envy the fans. It strikes me as odd the idea, you know, that fans are out showing...I don't know, nutmake under their queuedicles or something and trying to be really freaky, and you and Jagger sitting around discussing economics before the Anschluss and Benelux nations or something...am I exaggerating?

Bowie: No, he speaks economics and I don't understand him. (laughs)

Cavett: But is this in fact true that the...what is your private life like?

Bowie: Do you mind if I take this off? (David takes off his coat)

Cavett: No, please do.

Bowie: Allright...what I meant is that when I first started, I could get out and about a bit and I used to go to clubs and dance. You know, that was quite easy and I sorted out what I wanted to wear and what I wanted to do. But later on when things became slightly cocooned...

Cavett: Slightly what?

Bowie: Cocooned. I was kind of, you know, in there somewhere. I found that I was seeing what everybody else was wearing when they used to come to the shows. And I thought... there kind of out a little bit, so it ends up that I kind of get influenced by people that come to see me. I mean...I saw a person with a cane once...of course. Then someone started bringing them to the gigs and I really like them, so I started using one. So it wasn't me, it was them.

Cavett: You've been influenced by your audience in your style...

Bowie: Yeah, I think you are a lot.

Cavett: How do you dream up your latest manifestation? You know what I mean? Do you...

Bowie: Which one in particularly?

Cavett: In any case. Do you sit with a sketchpad? Do you work from your own dreams? Do you have visions?

Bowie: No, I'm in a lucky position of not wanting to fly. So I take a ship or train, or something.

Cavett: You won't fly?

Bowie: No.

Cavett: I read that you'd take the Trans-Siberian railway somewhere. That's a long way.

Bowie: Yeah, it was right through Russia. From the Okhotska through to Moscow and from Moscow - Warsaw - East-Berlin...../.?./.....

Cavett: Why won't you fly?

Bowie: Ah...it scares me...you know.

Cavett: Afraid that the plane will come down where it isn't supposed to?

Bowie: I don't like the feeling of going up. It always feels like something running very fast and then going to the edge of a cliff and then jumping and over it and getting to the other side.

Cavett: I like that though.

Bowie: Well, it should be like if it just goes up...(imitates a helicopter with his hand)... like this.

Cavett: Why do rockstars tend to have premonitions of doom? It seems to be a theme in their work and their lives.

Bowie: Ah...cause they're pretty nutty to be doing it in the first place. You know ...very tangled minds. Very messed up people.

Cavett: Do you ever try to picture yourself at sixty?

Bowie: Oh, no! (laughs)

Cavett: Scares me the idea of a reunion of the Beatles in their seventies, when they come tattering out on stage. Someone holds a guitar up in front of them while they pluck it...what... this is a rather personal question. Is that your real haircolour?

Bowie: Of course it isn't. I've never said it. No, I'm a blonde.

Cavett: When you walk around New York and hardheads say: "Hey sweetheart"...

Bowie: ...I drive around New York. (laughs)

Cavett: Good idea...(laughs)...What do your parents do for a living?

Bowie: Well, my father's dead and my mother has a small flat and I think she's got a day job.

Cavett: Does she have trouble explaining you to the neighbours, who say:"Are you any relation to that...

Bowie: ...Ah...I think she pretends I'm not hers...(laughs)...No she's...she doesn't talk much, you know...she doesn't...um...I don't think we really...we were never that close particularly. We have an understanding.

Cavett: Is that true that your real name is.../.?./...?

Bowie: Yeah! (laughs)

Cavett: Is it really? You didn't want that revealed?

Bowie: I was waiting for you to reveal it.

Cavett: Oh, I'm sorry if you didn't want that out. But...what is Black-noise?

Bowie: Black-noise?

Cavett: Yeah.

Bowie: Black-noise is something that Burroughs got very interested in. It's a...one facet of Black-noise is that...um...everything, like a glass if an opera singer hits a particular note, the vibrations of that hit the metabolism of the glass and cracks it, yeah? So a Black-noise is the register within which you can crack a city or people or...it's a new control bomb. It's a noise — bomb in fact, which can destroy...why do you ask that?

Cavett: I mean is it a real thing? Is it something...

Bowie: ...Oh yeah it is. It was invented in France.

Cavett: Could a tiro use this to...

Bowie: ...well, up until last year you could buy the patent for it in the French patent-office for about 3-4 dollars.

Cavett: And it would wipe out a...

Bowie: ...It depends how much money you put into it. I mean a small one could probably kill about half the people here. But a big one could ...destroy a city. Or even more...I mean...

Cavett: It's a wierd idea, isn't it?

Bowie: Well, it's not my idea...(laughs)...so...

Cavett: Let's not give the instructions on how to do it. Can you recommend a good book to your fans?

Bowie: A book this week? Apart from yours?

Cavett: Oh, do I have a book out?

Bowie: Yeah...(laughs)..oh no, who's into that.

Cavett: I wondered if you...last thing I read you said that Kerouac was important to you. But that's a long time back.

Bowie: I didn't say I was reading Machiavelli though. (laughs)

Cavett: You're reading Machiavelli?

Bowie: No!

Cavett: What would we find on your coffee-table, in your apartment in...

Bowie: Um...at the moment mainly pictures. I bought Diane Arbus' book of photographs. A photographer that I like very much.

Cavett: Can I ever do a walk-on in your show. I've got to know what it feels like to stand on stage in a big production thing like that.

Bowie: In a production? Well, if I had a part for you, yeah.

Cavett: Yeah...(laughs)...Mabye if I would bring out a cup of tea and a good book. (laughs)

Bowie: If it's your book. (laughs)

Cavett: Oh, I forgot about that. You do mime...

Bowie: ...go ahead and ask me about my book.

Cavett: You have a book?

Bowie: Well, funnily enough...(laughs)...

Cavett: A book comming?

Bowie: Yes. I'm writing...

Cavett: You are?

Bowie: Yeah, based on the Trans-Siberian Express.

Cavett: Oh, really?

Bowie: Uh-hum (nodding). Now you can ask me the next one.

Cavett: I'm glad to know that. How do you say your wifes name? I've seen it printed Angels and Angela. Which is the type-O?

Bowie: Um...Angela...Angie.

Cavett: Her real name is Angela?

Bowie: Mmm...it's Angela.

Cavett: Is she a model?

Bowie: Is she what?

Cavett: Is she a model or an actress or...I saw a really attractive picture of her.

Bowie: No, she was an intellectual that went to school in Switzerland and...has a vast capacity for knowledge and runs around does thesis on everything.

Cavett: Yeah...and how do you say your sons name?

Bowie: Zowie.

Cavett: Your son's name is Zowie Bowie?

Bowie: Yeah.

Cavett: Is it true that Frank Zappa has a child named Moon Unit?

Bowie: Yes.

Cavett: Can you imagine growing up. Kids in a tough neighbourhood: "Hey Moon Unit!". We will take a quick break but we will be right back.

(Commercial break)

Cavett: You know somewhere someone is writing a learned paper in a university called something like...Jagger and Bowie prophets of a pluralistic society...

Bowie: (makes snoring sounds)

Cavett: ...prophets of doom. Do you read this stuff? You see critics write very elaborate intellectual analysis of your work and other people. Does this put you to sleep?

Bowie: Um...the bad ones. I always read the good ones.

Cavett: Yeah (laughs). Do you want to be understood? You know what I mean...like Ziggy Stardust was...

Bowie: There's absolutely nothing to understand. I mean...

Cavett: ...with concern with feminine in the world and so on and prophecies of the world running out of food...

Bowie: Oh dear. I'm a storyteller and I'm a storywriter and I decided that I preferred to enact a lot of the material I was writing, rather than perform it as myself. At this moment I am performing as myself but I will continue in the future, after I've done what I wish to do at the moment, return back to writing stories and I will enact them again and I don't care what anybody says. I like doing it and it's what I shall continue to do.

Cavett: Oh, I'm not stopping you.

Bowie: No, I just...you know, it's not...nothing that I do is...is on any kind of intellectual slant...

Cavett: You got no mission?

Bowie: No, it's just...oh...

Cavett: Can you do anything about the ripping London apart. I've been there about seven times. We talked about this the other night...you told me the appalling news that they've torn down Whistler's House, the artist. I can't believe what they're doing...you have a lot of influence...

Bowie: ..not since I bought it.(laughs)

Cavett: I was gonna say you have influence and money. Can't you...

Bowie: No, you can't do...no one has any influence. I mean everything has been sectioned off into separate pieces of property and no doubt now that the socialist governement has nationalised or is going to nationalise ground, more of it will come down and...

Cavett: What do you think of...

Bowie: ...I don't know. I haven't made any decision on it. Cause I know a lot of families that need houses. As much as I like the architecture...you know. I don't know...I can't general...oh don't ask me about politics and...I mean, what do I know?

Cavett: Did I say politics?

Bowie: But that's what it will become you see, because I mean it's...it's all politics... motivation of finance, it's politics isn't it?

Cavett: Okay, you're gonna do another number...however, if you do it now it will be interrupted by a commercial which will be appalling. So, why don't we take a short break? We will be right back and thank you for coming here.

Bowie: It's been a pleasure. Thank you.